Curse

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I'm not really thinking inside the box. But your wording is saying that even bringing counters for the counters of your builds will be countered. I am saying, for making coding easier, to give most monsters a counter to most gimmick builds. This would need counters to the enemies' builds but your counters won't be countered, which is what your suggesting.

Also, your need to think logically. If you bring a build that has counters, but you also have a few skills that counters the counters to your build, those first counters (the ones that the enemy has) are no longer true counters, and by what your wanting, the monsters will just bring a counter to the counters that you brought, which will mean that you will need a counter to the counters of your counter, which ends up making an ENDLESS CYCLE OF COUNTERS THAT WON'T WORK!

That is what I was saying without trying to be confusing about what you said. But you forced me to have to use the word "counter" 50 million times to say how your idea won't work. You cannot have a "counter for each build/skill brought" because that would then make it IMPOSSIBLE to beat as when you bring a counter, they will bring a counter to your counter.

It will NEVER stop being a COUNTER OF COUNTERS! Monsters NEED a fix build in PvE, the coding alone would be too much to bother with if you have it so monsters have a counter to your skills and/or builds. What your asking is for there to be an endless amount of counters and builds that just have counters to counters. Which aren't even builds!

What I said is not only easier to do, but much more logical AND it makes the version even POSSIBLE!

PLEASE! Use some logic in what you want and THINK about what you want.

Do you play PvP? Do you ever sit and wonder what build you should bring because of what build counter your build and what to cover that in case it gets countered, etc? Its called metagaming. Its fun.

I know what i want, i guess i should really elaborate more into whats in my head.

Ill go edit the op ;p

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Do you play PvP? Do you ever sit and wonder what build you should bring because of what build counter your build and what to cover that in case it gets countered, etc? Its called metagaming. Its fun.

I know what i want, i guess i should really elaborate more into whats in my head.

Ill go edit the op ;p

Do I play PvP? not really, but when I do, I do bring a few counters to gimmick builds. However, bringing a counter to a build is different from bringing a counter to a counter which counters a counter... and so on and so on. I use builds that purposely have counters, and even with (most) of those counters against me, I do fine. I'll await your reworded OP so that it doesn't sound like the monsters will bring a counter to everything you bring, even your counters to their counters...

Maybe just doing what I said, which was have most monsters have counters to most builds out there (and all gimmick builds) instead of bringing a different build each time you enter the area with a different build of your own... too much coding for that, which means ANet won't even bother (if they would for something easier like what I said).

MithranArkanere · Jul 14, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

That's unnecessarily complicated. Just randomly making monsters have ONE extra property would be enough:

Normal enemies would have ONE extra property from a list of possible ones:
- Immunity to a certain condition.
- Immunity to an attribute line.
- 50% resistance to a damage type (excepting chaos damage and armor ignoring damage)
- 50% chances of resisting skills of a profession.
- Etc...

Bosses would have TWO extra properties. The list for them would be previous one plus more powerful extras:
- 100% Immunity to a certain damage type.
- Immunity to all skills of a certain profession.
- Immunity to all conditions.
- Immunity to a certain type of skill (Hexes, Touches, Signets, etc)
- Transfers damage to adjacent allied monsters.
- Transfers conditions to adjacent allied monsters.
- Transfers a certain type of skills to adjacent allied monsters.
- Etc...

Special plot bosses would have THREE extra properties. The list for them would be the two previous ones plus even more powerful extras:
- Immunity to title attribute lines.
- Damage dealing to anyone using a certain type of skill
- Transfers conditions deal to him to any adjacent party member.
- Transfers damage deal to him to any adjacent party member.
- Transfers a certain type of skill deal to him to any adjacent party member.
- Etc...

So, every time you enter an Instance, each creature gets its extra properties like some monsters get random weapons.

And done! More randomness in the game!

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

That's unnecessarily complicated. Just randomly making monsters have ONE extra property would be enough:

Normal enemies would have ONE extra property from a list of possible ones:
- Immunity to a certain condition.
- Immunity to an attribute line.
- 50% resistance to a damage type (excepting chaos damage and armor ignoring damage)
- 50% chances of resisting skills of a profession.
- Etc...

Bosses would have TWO extra properties. The list for them would be previous one plus more powerful extras:
- 100% Immunity to a certain damage type.
- Immunity to all skills of a certain profession.
- Immunity to all conditions.
- Immunity to a certain type of skill (Hexes, Touches, Signets, etc)
- Transfers damage to adjacent allied monsters.
- Transfers conditions to adjacent allied monsters.
- Transfers a certain type of skills to adjacent allied monsters.
- Etc...

Special plot bosses would have THREE extra properties. The list for them would be the two previous ones plus even more powerful extras:
- Immunity to title attribute lines.
- Damage dealing to anyone using a certain type of skill
- Transfers conditions deal to him to any adjacent party member.
- Transfers damage deal to him to any adjacent party member.
- Transfers a certain type of skill deal to him to any adjacent party member.
- Etc...

So, every time you enter an Instance, each creature gets its extra properties like some monsters get random weapons.

And done! More randomness in the game!

But thats just Hardmode again. They simply beefed up the monsters instead of actually being creative. Its an unfair advantage, and imo, kinda dumb.

Theres no real challenge in an overpowered monster.

Id much prefer a monster on even skill-sets as me.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Id much prefer a monster on even skill-sets as me.

Then instead of making every monsters have a counter to your profession, just give them old PvE/PvP builds like the Charr in EN, with dual professions and 8 skills. That makes them on even skill-sets. And then adding what MithranArkanere would make it a real challenge.

And overpowered bosses are a challenge, monsters on equal footing as you, not so much, in comparison at least.

doudou_steve · Jul 14, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

badass suggestions

Yeah that would be cool, cooler if it had a ramdom environment effect, like in nightfall's realm of torment.

But this should be the real hard mode, not another mode.

Skye Marin · Jul 14, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Tank and Spank would still beat most things. Even if you have a mob with identical skills as your team and a few levels higher, the AI can and will be exploited. The Doppelganger is a solid example of this. On the first few trys by a new player, it may seem plenty hard, but all you need to beat it is Healing Breeze and a wand, or a handful of long-casting skills that don't have much to do with the build you're using to kill with (like nature rituals).

Even something like the Mandragor mob, a team build designed for condition, hex, and melee pressure, coupled with one of the games most versatile non-player skills (Mandragor's Charge) is easy to confront with a skilled balanced team.

I had a similar idea a while ago too:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10299371

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Then instead of making every monsters have a counter to your profession, just give them old PvE/PvP builds like the Charr in EN, with dual professions and 8 skills. That makes them on even skill-sets. And then adding what MithranArkanere would make it a real challenge.

And overpowered bosses are a challenge, monsters on equal footing as you, not so much, in comparison at least.

The EOTN monster builds are terrible! @_@

They were a good idea, but just terrible execution. Very easy to counter with a proper build.

Thats one of the main problem i have with the so called Hardmode.

Static builds, no matter how powerful, will eventually be broken down and exploited/farmed.

But builds that randomize and change to suit you, are more difficult.

Overpowered bosses and environmental effects are so cheezy and cheap. I dont find them a challenge, i find them annoying at the least. Unfair at the most.

wanmoke · Jul 14, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Based on the posts I've read, it seems like you want to give human intelligence to AI, which I don't think is possible. Add in the fact that AI's reflexes are greater than a human's. That 1/4 casting time of a spell will just about ALWAYS be interrupted. Part of the fun of PvP is NOT knowing what your opponent's builds will be. You select your build, and they may have exactly what they need to counter you and steamroll you into the ground, or it may be the other way around. Or, you're more evenly matched and then true player skill comes into play.

By monsters already knowing what you're bringing, it would bring the game to a horrible level of unfairness I think. It's a good idea, but I think it needs refinement.

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanmoke

Based on the posts I've read, it seems like you want to give human intelligence to AI, which I don't think is possible. Add in the fact that AI's reflexes are greater than a human's. That 1/4 casting time of a spell will just about ALWAYS be interrupted. Part of the fun of PvP is NOT knowing what your opponent's builds will be. You select your build, and they may have exactly what they need to counter you and steamroll you into the ground, or it may be the other way around. Or, you're more evenly matched and then true player skill comes into play.

By monsters already knowing what you're bringing, it would bring the game to a horrible level of unfairness I think. It's a good idea, but I think it needs refinement.

One thing I've always wanted to see is a monster mob running SABway or some other minion heavy build. Seriously. They would kill other monsters and build an army then just ransack the players. I think it would be hilarious.

Im just sick of zoning out and knowing "Ok, all bad guys hex me here" or "All bad guys here have enchant". Even in hardmode, its boring.

:\ i want some variety and surprise.

I dont see the problem in the monsters knowing what you have ahead of time since players have ALWAYS known what monsters had ahead of time. ;p

Stockholm · Jul 14, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Some people simply have too much time on their hands.

wanmoke · Jul 14, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Another question. Would the monsters carry over the stuff from Hard Mode? The increased attribute point setup, faster activation of skills, faster attack and movement speed?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The EOTN monster builds are terrible! @_@

They were a good idea, but just terrible execution. Very easy to counter with a proper build.

Thats one of the main problem i have with the so called Hardmode.

Static builds, no matter how powerful, will eventually be broken down and exploited/farmed.

But builds that randomize and change to suit you, are more difficult.

Overpowered bosses and environmental effects are so cheezy and cheap. I dont find them a challenge, i find them annoying at the least. Unfair at the most.

I didn't mean "use the builds from Charr in EN" I meant "use that as an example" as in, make secondary professions and full skill bars of builds that have been made (and not yet nerfed to hell) and have those being used. Or new builds that players can use (monsters having a much higher attribute, as HM every attribute is at 20, extreme mode would have 25 attribute or something).

As for your complaint about overpowered bosses and environmental effects, it does sound like you want something that would take too long to implement. GW2 would be out before what you want would be out, if work on both doesn't hinder the other and are both worked on now.

Your wanting the "hardest it can get but still be possible." Which is rather hard to do, and would reduce the builds available to about 1 or 2 per profession, which would end up being worse then Ursan! Just simply making things harder then hard mode is what is all that's really needed, at least as a step forward.

Or, better idea, just make the current Hard Mode harder! By adding in more things, changing builds to make them two profession and full skill bars, and other things like what MithranArkanere suggested.

What you want is improbably and highly impossible, especially with GW AI and ANet's budget/staff.

MithranArkanere · Jul 14, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But thats just Hardmode again. They simply beefed up the monsters instead of actually being creative. Its an unfair advantage, and imo, kinda dumb.

Theres no real challenge in an overpowered monster.

Id much prefer a monster on even skill-sets as me.

But will serve for the purpose with much less cost than random skills bars.

For skills bars, a lot of testing would be required, since skills bars require synergy and working sets and consistency.

Bonus extras won't be like more armor or more attribute points, it would be different.
With more armor and attributes, people bring skills that can deal more and more damage. Right now people can just ursan things around.

But more varied builds that can go through all types of extras, so if something do not work something else could be done. You change the armor ignoring damage of the Norn Blessings to Blunt (Ursan) Piercing (Raven) and Slashing (Volfen)... and ding! If people just bring Ursan, they migh find that one of the Monolith spawns in the Fight versus abaddon is immune to Blunt damage... mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

See? I though trough about it.

Kinn · Jul 14, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

The programming cost of the OP's suggestion is far too expensive to do properly considering how many programmers Anet are going to be keeping on GW1. Even if they did make an awesome uber-algorithm that could magically generate an AI team build to counter a hand-crafted human team build, they would forever be playing catch-up as the human players gradually chip away at all the limitations and weaknesses and exploits that will invariably plague the logic of the build-generating algorithms.

Diddy bow · Jul 14, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Somthing like this will just involve players finding little gaps in the programming, there is no way they will efficantly counter everything we can come up with. Id rather see more of a random element to monsters builds as well as where they are spawned in an explorable. Giving all monsters a self heal and all groups a healer/rezzer is a pretty good idea too.

Dont get me wrong though this is way better than most games current idea of hard, i.e ennimies do an extra 500 damage a hit but are the same in every other way.

tormtk · Jul 14, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Its been said over and over again --programming nightmare and that is if it is even possible at all. I understand what you want to happen, but it is unrealistc. You want the challenge of PvP in a PvE enviroment. Sorry but you should just go PvP because, while I'll like your thinking, the way you want it to happen wont. Others here have posted variations of your ideas that are feasible, so keeo an eye out for GW2 the might have some of the suggestions from above but dont expect a counter, counters random skill generator based on players skill bar to even be in there. I realize thinking outside the box is great but bring it back to the real world.

Sai Rith · Jul 15, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

There's gonna be someone who wants an emote amirite???? To get on-topic, this would definetly be good. This would rely solely on skill, instead of your Norn Rank. Special Gold Skins and Green items only obtainable here should defintly be added.

fireflyry · Jul 15, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

I like the idea in principle, but it just seems a huge change when they're (supposedly) working on GW2.

Agreed.

I love the idea but it just seems too fanciful and unrealistic to me.The amount of time it would take to implement properly would be pretty large imo and by the time it did come out most people would be even more focussed on GW2 and giving less of a toss about GW1.

Still dreams are free.

Solas · Jul 15, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Sounds alot like PVP tbh
-No PvE skills
-A variant of builds being used.
-A New Challange

/not signed
i don't think GW needs another new mode